Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Oli rag
I think that buy to let has wrecked the housing market for first time buyers. Prior to buying to let really becoming popular, the price of a small home suitable for first time buyers would generally be limited to local average salaries and multiples there of.

If the price of initial homes exceeded what was affordable to first time buyers then they ( in the past) would not normally find a buyer and the market and upward chain would grind to a halt until salaries increased enough ( unlikely), or the price would match the buyers affordability.

I can well understand why people with excess cash would choose to invest in property, when returns from other investments may be poor, but I think it must be accepted that there has been a perhaps unseen bad affect on the housing market.

The reason for this rant is that I have two grown up children with good careers and decent salaries who are struggling to afford a property, while we sit comfortably in a mortgage free property bought in the 90’s before the housing market became crazy.

And yes we struggled through the late 80’s early 90’s boom and bust housing bubble plus incredibly high interest rates when we were first time buyers ourselves, but it was never as bad as this.
Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - alan1302

I don't think it's the only thing but certainly a major cause.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Xileno

With inflation on the rise, maybe the BoE will raise the interest rate. That should cool the market. Also it would help if the Govt. stopped pumping steroids into the market with policies such as stamp duty holidays etc.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - _

For some, the EVIL ones are the one who have had their pensions ripped off by lowering returns and have decided to put their money somewhere a bit saafer, ie property..

If someone has a mortgage on a buy to let the returns are very low.

But. it is a very emotive subject for some.

The corporate investors buying up entire streets and blocks of flats are the real villains.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - daveyjp

Housing market is no different now to what it has always been. Some areas will be expensive, some will be cheaper. The south ueast has always been the really expensive area.

My parents couldn't afford the house they wanted when they married, Huge restrictions on lending. Both were in jobs, mum was paid more than dad, but only dad's income counted for mortgage purposes so they had to buy in a different area where a similar house was 10% cheaper. My mums dad lent them deposit which mum paid back from her salary,

After uni I turned down jobs in London as I couldn't afford to buy there, took a job in another part of the country where I did buy without any issues. The first house I bought is still very much affordable for first time buyers and cheaper options in decent areas are available.

Edited by daveyjp on 10/06/2021 at 08:44

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Bromptonaut

Housing market is no different now to what it has always been. Some areas will be expensive, some will be cheaper. The south ueast has always been the really expensive area.

Sure some places were more expensive than others and London, the SE and areas well into the Midlands that had good commuter links to London were hotspots. Villages, even those that are little more than detached dormitory suburbs, are more costly than large towns.

Overall though, whether at FTB or family home level, earnings multiples have gone through the roof.

We paid £110k for our present house in 1998. At the time our combined earnings were in the order of £40k.

If I were still a full time Civil Servant and Mrs B a part time Science Teacher our combined earning would be approx £70k. The house however is probably worth £350k.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - movilogo

While BTL is definitely a contributing factor, it is not the only one inflating the price.

A major reason why people buy properties for investment is due to very poor savings interest rate - which is less than inflation meaning your money reducing if kept in bank.

In many Asian countries (except tiny ones like Hong Kong, Singapore) BTL is not an issue because savings interest is as good as return from BTL.

At least pandemic gives the option to move away from large cities to towns where properties are still affordable. Of course, one can do this only if can work from home.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Engineer Andy

I think that it is just one cause of many.

Another I can think of off the top of my head is the allowing of outsiders to buy second (or more) homes, often in touristy/seaside areas like Cornwall, which significantly reduces the availabe stock (including when used as BTL or holiday lets [not helped as most of the money then leaves the county]) drives up prices for locals, pricing many, not just first time buyers out of the market because the local jobs are poorly paid and mainly seasonal.

I watched the re-runs of the progamme "Cornwall with Simon Reeve", which showed how bad the problem was, driving many young people well out of the county to get both jobs and affordable housing.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - movilogo

UK should restrict residential property ownerships to British citizens only.

Previously London properties were snapped up by billionaire foreigners and now plenty of cheaper properties in North East are being snapped up by millionaire foreigners.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Bromptonaut

UK should restrict residential property ownerships to British citizens only.

Previously London properties were snapped up by billionaire foreigners and now plenty of cheaper properties in North East are being snapped up by millionaire foreigners.

It should be possible to deal with the 'billionaire' problem without affecting those individuals with a right to reside in the UK that is short of full citizenship. Forcing them to rent would have the perverse effect of increasing demand for rentals.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Bromptonaut

Another I can think of off the top of my head is the allowing of outsiders to buy second (or more) homes, often in touristy/seaside areas like Cornwall, which significantly reduces the availabe stock (including when used as BTL or holiday lets [not helped as most of the money then leaves the county]) drives up prices for locals, pricing many, not just first time buyers out of the market because the local jobs are poorly paid and mainly seasonal.

Lack of housing for locals in tourist hot spots due to second homes has been gradually worsening for many years. The fact that it's possible to commute to Leeds, Bradford, Sheffield or Manchester from Pennine villages is another.

The lack of housing at affordable cost for FTB's in large swathes of the country due to deposit and/or income multiples is similar but not identical. The pressure also extends to rents. A three bed in Northamptonshire's dormitory villages approaches £1000/month. The maximum payable in Universal Credit is approx. £800. The Benefit Cap takes no account of that and will bite ordinary sized families.

What happened to Social Housing? Over the years since 2008 governments could have borrowed at very low rates, easily covered by rents, and built many thousands of homes.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Brit_in_Germany

Since whenhas it been a duty of government to build and rent out homes?

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - alan1302

Since whenhas it been a duty of government to build and rent out homes?

Since always - there should always be social house available to people.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Bromptonaut

Since whenhas it been a duty of government to build and rent out homes?

It is surely a duty of government to facilitate a supply of decent and affordable housing. Allowing Councils or other Social Landlords to provide is one. Proper rent controls is another.

Having a Welfare system that provides a subsistence income and then deliberately paying less than that as well as ignoring real market rents is merely the cherry on the top.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Engineer Andy

Since whenhas it been a duty of government to build and rent out homes?

It is surely a duty of government to facilitate a supply of decent and affordable housing. Allowing Councils or other Social Landlords to provide is one. Proper rent controls is another.

Oh dear. That's exactly the mantra of the socialist- communist manifesto. Presumably you also think that governments should produce our food, build cars and provide every other 'means of production'? That went out of fashion nearly 50 years ago, and with good reason.

Also, rent controls just restrict 'cheap' supply to certain individuals whilst increasing them to everyone else (who make up the vast majority of renters). As has been shown time and again, increased intervention in this regard just keep the poor as such, because it pays them to.

Having a Welfare system that provides a subsistence income and then deliberately paying less than that as well as ignoring real market rents is merely the cherry on the top.

You don't pay people to 'exist'. Welfare should ONLY ever be to help a person/family through a temporary period of hard times and not to permanently prop their income up. It just encourages employers to suppress wages at the bottom and, like the above, to discourage those on low incomes from bettering themselves.

Maybe you need a holiday? :-)

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Bromptonaut

You don't pay people to 'exist'. Welfare should ONLY ever be to help a person/family through a temporary period of hard times and not to permanently prop their income up. It just encourages employers to suppress wages at the bottom and, like the above, to discourage those on low incomes from bettering themselves.

I'd agree with you about employers/wages although how you break the cycle is a conundrum.

How does helping people through temporary hard times help when the problem is lifelong?

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Engineer Andy

You don't pay people to 'exist'. Welfare should ONLY ever be to help a person/family through a temporary period of hard times and not to permanently prop their income up. It just encourages employers to suppress wages at the bottom and, like the above, to discourage those on low incomes from bettering themselves.

I'd agree with you about employers/wages although how you break the cycle is a conundrum.

How does helping people through temporary hard times help when the problem is lifelong?

Only a tiny number of people are in that position, and yet millions are welfare dependent because the system is designed to keep them from bettering themselves, including their health.

Many people are on benefits for a large part of their life because either:

a) they make bad life choices in variety of ways;

b) poorly paid jobs are topped up by the state, thus encouraging employers not to pay better to keep staff. Minimum wage systems do not work because they encourage wage differentials and push up real inflation;

c) mass immigration (especially illegal immigration) has been proven to lower wages (relative to everyone else's and the cost of living*), particularly of the lower paid and thus the cycle only gets worse, with more people sucked into the benefit trap.

* Real inflation is has been far higher in Western countries than the headline CPI/RPI figues always indicate.

This is because both (especially CPI) including a 'basket' of goods based on the most popular (by amount spent on them), and thus are skewed towards high value items that the well-off mainly buy, such as new cars, high spec mobile phones, computer and home AV equipment, etc, wherer tech goods have until 2020 dropped significantly in price due to innovations.

Unfortunately, most people on average and lower incomes cannot afford many of these luxuries (e.g. they own a small TV rather than an 80in mega flatscreen or a £70 mobile phone rather than a £1k iPhone, etc), and thus things like food, housing and travel form a much higher percentage of they monthly outlay.

Added to the problems caused by mass immigration and rich people buying second homes/BTL, plus far less investment in poorer areas because they are run badly (high crime, councils concentrating on woke left wing policies, etc) means that many people living there (or elsewhere in poorer neighbourhoods) cannot afford to move elsewhere where the jobs and nicer housing are.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - alan1302

You don't pay people to 'exist'. Welfare should ONLY ever be to help a person/family through a temporary period of hard times and not to permanently prop their income up. It just encourages employers to suppress wages at the bottom and, like the above, to discourage those on low incomes from bettering themselves.

But if you don't allow any rent controls then rents continue to go up...you don't want any social housing ...people can't afford to rent a house on a low income...who would you help? Or would you not and just let them become homeless?

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Engineer Andy

You don't pay people to 'exist'. Welfare should ONLY ever be to help a person/family through a temporary period of hard times and not to permanently prop their income up. It just encourages employers to suppress wages at the bottom and, like the above, to discourage those on low incomes from bettering themselves.

But if you don't allow any rent controls then rents continue to go up...you don't want any social housing ...people can't afford to rent a house on a low income...who would you help? Or would you not and just let them become homeless?

I suggest that you read up on rent controls first before pontificating. Wherever they've been tried, they never work. All they do is encourage people to stay poor, subsidised by those just outside the qualifying level, thus drawing more in eventually.

But that's socialism for you. Everyone except those in charge are all equally poor. All that's happening now is that it's being combined with corporatism so we just have elite million and billionairres and the Establishent elite in politics/civil services/media.

Note also how all these people have their own set of 'rules' (or lack thereof) during the pandemic. Notice also how so many of these rich elites are buying up whole swathes of housing and land over the last year? All for our benefit? I think not.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - alan1302

You don't pay people to 'exist'. Welfare should ONLY ever be to help a person/family through a temporary period of hard times and not to permanently prop their income up. It just encourages employers to suppress wages at the bottom and, like the above, to discourage those on low incomes from bettering themselves.

But if you don't allow any rent controls then rents continue to go up...you don't want any social housing ...people can't afford to rent a house on a low income...who would you help? Or would you not and just let them become homeless?

I suggest that you read up on rent controls first before pontificating. Wherever they've been tried, they never work. All they do is encourage people to stay poor, subsidised by those just outside the qualifying level, thus drawing more in eventually.

But that's socialism for you. Everyone except those in charge are all equally poor. All that's happening now is that it's being combined with corporatism so we just have elite million and billionairres and the Establishent elite in politics/civil services/media.

Note also how all these people have their own set of 'rules' (or lack thereof) during the pandemic. Notice also how so many of these rich elites are buying up whole swathes of housing and land over the last year? All for our benefit? I think not.

You didn't answer the question!

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Engineer Andy

You don't pay people to 'exist'. Welfare should ONLY ever be to help a person/family through a temporary period of hard times and not to permanently prop their income up. It just encourages employers to suppress wages at the bottom and, like the above, to discourage those on low incomes from bettering themselves.

But if you don't allow any rent controls then rents continue to go up...you don't want any social housing ...people can't afford to rent a house on a low income...who would you help? Or would you not and just let them become homeless?

I suggest that you read up on rent controls first before pontificating. Wherever they've been tried, they never work. All they do is encourage people to stay poor, subsidised by those just outside the qualifying level, thus drawing more in eventually.

But that's socialism for you. Everyone except those in charge are all equally poor. All that's happening now is that it's being combined with corporatism so we just have elite million and billionairres and the Establishent elite in politics/civil services/media.

Note also how all these people have their own set of 'rules' (or lack thereof) during the pandemic. Notice also how so many of these rich elites are buying up whole swathes of housing and land over the last year? All for our benefit? I think not.

You didn't answer the question!

Maybe you should rad all my comments first, then you might relaise that you already have your answer.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Bromptonaut

Maybe you should rad all my comments first, then you might relaise that you already have your answer.

You only answered in terms of your own opinions on socialism and 'elites' although I think the way in which land is bought/sold/developed is a matter of huge concer.

I'd also add that you didn't answer my earlier question challenging you the view that Welfare should be strictly short term (though I agree it shouldn't be subsidising poverty wages).

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - alan1302

You don't pay people to 'exist'. Welfare should ONLY ever be to help a person/family through a temporary period of hard times and not to permanently prop their income up. It just encourages employers to suppress wages at the bottom and, like the above, to discourage those on low incomes from bettering themselves.

But if you don't allow any rent controls then rents continue to go up...you don't want any social housing ...people can't afford to rent a house on a low income...who would you help? Or would you not and just let them become homeless?

I suggest that you read up on rent controls first before pontificating. Wherever they've been tried, they never work. All they do is encourage people to stay poor, subsidised by those just outside the qualifying level, thus drawing more in eventually.

But that's socialism for you. Everyone except those in charge are all equally poor. All that's happening now is that it's being combined with corporatism so we just have elite million and billionairres and the Establishent elite in politics/civil services/media.

Note also how all these people have their own set of 'rules' (or lack thereof) during the pandemic. Notice also how so many of these rich elites are buying up whole swathes of housing and land over the last year? All for our benefit? I think not.

You didn't answer the question!

Maybe you should rad all my comments first, then you might relaise that you already have your answer.

You would make a great politician, Andy - lots of waffle with no ideas at all and can never answer a straight question without talking about something else and throwing out a few buzz words (socialism/establishment/MSM etc) and making out the other person does not understand or has not read what you have already written.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Engineer Andy

You don't pay people to 'exist'. Welfare should ONLY ever be to help a person/family through a temporary period of hard times and not to permanently prop their income up. It just encourages employers to suppress wages at the bottom and, like the above, to discourage those on low incomes from bettering themselves.

But if you don't allow any rent controls then rents continue to go up...you don't want any social housing ...people can't afford to rent a house on a low income...who would you help? Or would you not and just let them become homeless?

I suggest that you read up on rent controls first before pontificating. Wherever they've been tried, they never work. All they do is encourage people to stay poor, subsidised by those just outside the qualifying level, thus drawing more in eventually.

But that's socialism for you. Everyone except those in charge are all equally poor. All that's happening now is that it's being combined with corporatism so we just have elite million and billionairres and the Establishent elite in politics/civil services/media.

Note also how all these people have their own set of 'rules' (or lack thereof) during the pandemic. Notice also how so many of these rich elites are buying up whole swathes of housing and land over the last year? All for our benefit? I think not.

You didn't answer the question!

Maybe you should rad all my comments first, then you might relaise that you already have your answer.

You would make a great politician, Andy - lots of waffle with no ideas at all and can never answer a straight question without talking about something else and throwing out a few buzz words (socialism/establishment/MSM etc) and making out the other person does not understand or has not read what you have already written.

The words pot, kettle and black spring to mind. And BTW, 'Socialism' isn't a buzzword, it's ideology lead to teh edaths of over 100M people (and counting - China, NK and Venezuela to name a few) in the last 100 years, more than both world wars added together.

That you resort to straw-manning me shows that you have nothing useful to say or answers to any of my (or others') questions. Play the ball, not the man.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Bromptonaut

I suggest that you read up on rent controls first before pontificating. Wherever they've been tried, they never work. All they do is encourage people to stay poor, subsidised by those just outside the qualifying level, thus drawing more in eventually.

Where do you think rent controls have 'not worked'?

Admittedly the UK system prevailing until the Assured Shorthold became universal wasn't working but that was down to a failure to keep it up to date.

A number of US cities, NY and SF for example, have controls of one form or another as do EU countries.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Engineer Andy

I suggest that you read up on rent controls first before pontificating. Wherever they've been tried, they never work. All they do is encourage people to stay poor, subsidised by those just outside the qualifying level, thus drawing more in eventually.

Where do you think rent controls have 'not worked'?

Admittedly the UK system prevailing until the Assured Shorthold became universal wasn't working but that was down to a failure to keep it up to date.

A number of US cities, NY and SF for example, have controls of one form or another as do EU countries.

And what 'amazing' cities they are...

Just because some places have a policy, doesn't make it a good one. In many of those areas, despite rent controls, young people still cannot get affordable accomodation, and the city councils have no more money and are heavily in debt.

Presumably you would like them to follow the World Economic Forum's (and the UN's Agenda 21/30) policies of:

"You're own nothing and be happy", "live in the pod" and "eat the bugs".

Meanwhile, large numbers of people are fleeing California (especially San Francisco) and New York (for GOP controlled Florida and Texas) because they hate the way they are governed, especially during the past year (no guessing which party is in charge), with the CA governor being recalled (well over the 2M signatures required), and the NY governor being investigated after both 'improprietary' against women and (as PHE/NHS did here) dumping tens of thousands of untested OAPs in care homes when the evidence said this was a really bad policy.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - alan1302

Meanwhile, large numbers of people are fleeing California (especially San Francisco) and New York (for GOP controlled Florida and Texas) because they hate the way they are governed, especially during the past year (no guessing which party is in charge), with the CA governor being recalled (well over the 2M signatures required), and the NY governor being investigated after both 'improprietary' against women and (as PHE/NHS did here) dumping tens of thousands of untested OAPs in care homes when the evidence said this was a really bad policy.

A good example here as to when you start talking about something totally unrelated to the subject just add to your waffle quotient.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Bromptonaut

And what 'amazing' cities they are...

NY is OK as a tourist and SF/LA are on my list. Frankly one could say the same about London

Just because some places have a policy, doesn't make it a good one. In many of those areas, despite rent controls, young people still cannot get affordable accommodation, and the city councils have no more money and are heavily in debt.

Rent controls should be part of government's armoury to ensure the basic right to a home is established. Other tools including Social Housing and licensing of landlords are also available.

Presumably you would like them to follow the World Economic Forum's (and the UN's Agenda 21/30) policies of:

"You're own nothing and be happy", "live in the pod" and "eat the bugs".

Not got a Scooby what that's about. Can you provide a link to something demonstrating it and why it's relevant to affordable housing in the UK.

Meanwhile, large numbers of people are fleeing California (especially San Francisco) and New York (for GOP controlled Florida and Texas) because they hate the way they are governed, especially during the past year (no guessing which party is in charge), with the CA governor being recalled (well over the 2M signatures required), and the NY governor being investigated after both 'improprietary' against women and (as PHE/NHS did here) dumping tens of thousands of untested OAPs in care homes when the evidence said this was a really bad policy.

The stuff above has diddly to do with the UK housing market. Given that the GOP is in the image of a man who thinks 'Grab em by the Pussy' is OK either as an approach or linguistically you might want to keep out of 'Whatboutery' around allegations of misconduct with women.

Moving out of big cities when you can is par for the course; I live in Northants because it was nicer than places inside the M25. And before you even consider raising the Labour Mayorality in London I left long before the post was created.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 16/06/2021 at 09:31

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - FiestaOwner

Since whenhas it been a duty of government to build and rent out homes?

Since 1919:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_house

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Engineer Andy

Since whenhas it been a duty of government to build and rent out homes?

Since 1919:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_house

100 years? Wooo! And I don't see it enshrined 'in law' or part of some 'moral code' Brits all aspire to.

And what a great era to start at - the beginnings of the effects of communism. A great way to keep the little man in his place. Far better to put the money into better education for all and enact laws raising standards for housing so that people can do better.

Government should be a safety net when in hard/dangerous times, not to provide for people generally. For those who want that, I suggest you read up about the failures of every 'go' at communism and hardline socialism. Either that or move to the few communist countries left. I would say send us a postcard, but I suspect it wouldn't be allowed once you find out what the realities are in those nations.

Capitalism may be flawed, but it's the only system that doesn't end up with a failed society and much worse.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - sammy1

What is wrecking the housing market is very few affordable houses are being built to allow people renting to move on and mortgage an affordable property. Councils try to manipulate this in the planning office making the developer build X affordable homes and free playgrounds etc but too many £300k plus houses are being built. house builders also hang on to so called banks of land which again slows down building and increases demand and their profit

The sell off of council house in the "right to buy" at large discounts has left many councils with real problems in affordable houses and here again councils have "sold off" their whole stocks of property to management companies. With business moving out of towns and increasing numbers of shops lying empty perhaps these can be turned in accommodation

As to the whole picture of how we live well we ARE all controlled by government no matter what you want to call the politics

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - movilogo

House price inflation fuelled by easy credit.

When someone approaches bank for borrowing against a house, the bank does not have to have the money in its chest.

If the house costs £100k, bank creates a digital entry of £100k in their account against the house as a collateral.

As long as the bank is confident that if the borrower defaults and bank can recover more than what they lent by repossessing (and selling) the house, the bank has nothing to lose.

There is a limit on how much money bank can create like this from thin air (fractional reserve system) but in reality it is like unlimited money from a money tree.

If our monetary policy followed gold standards, then house price would not have inflated like this.

While we do have a problem with over population and not enough houses, people can only buy because they can get easy credit from banks. Only a small number of people buy houses with cash.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Bromptonaut

What is wrecking the housing market is very few affordable houses are being built to allow people renting to move on and mortgage an affordable property.

That's a difficult one. Affordable means below the open market price. How do you keep those homes in a local market and stop the owners selling them on after n years?

It's been tried in the past using Planning Agreements enforceable/amendable as though they were restrictive covenants. I don't think it was successful.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - sammy1

"""That's a difficult one. Affordable means below the open market price. How do you keep those homes in a local market and stop the owners selling them on after n years? """

Affordable in my meaning is building houses in the lowest bracket say £100k to £300k If these were being built in sufficient numbers then people could afford to move out of rented and get their foot on the ownership ladder. There is a big shortage of houses going on the market particularly in the lower bracket and all Sunak's purchase tax relief has done is put money in the pockets of the rich. The price of land directly affects the profit margins of the builder and what they want to build. Post war large council estates were built at affordable rents all over the country and there is no sign of this policy returning.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - galileo

"""That's a difficult one. Affordable means below the open market price. How do you keep those homes in a local market and stop the owners selling them on after n years? """

Affordable in my meaning is building houses in the lowest bracket say £100k to £300k If these were being built in sufficient numbers then people could afford to move out of rented and get their foot on the ownership ladder. There is a big shortage of houses going on the market particularly in the lower bracket and all Sunak's purchase tax relief has done is put money in the pockets of the rich. The price of land directly affects the profit margins of the builder and what they want to build. Post war large council estates were built at affordable rents all over the country and there is no sign of this policy returning.

According to a family member living in Newquay, the business he works for can not get staff because there is no accommodation available.

Average house prices are now £400,000, owners of B and B's are selling these to affluent Londoners as second homes, so fewer B and B's and hotels are all booked up with staycationers.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Engineer Andy

"""That's a difficult one. Affordable means below the open market price. How do you keep those homes in a local market and stop the owners selling them on after n years? """

Affordable in my meaning is building houses in the lowest bracket say £100k to £300k If these were being built in sufficient numbers then people could afford to move out of rented and get their foot on the ownership ladder. There is a big shortage of houses going on the market particularly in the lower bracket and all Sunak's purchase tax relief has done is put money in the pockets of the rich. The price of land directly affects the profit margins of the builder and what they want to build. Post war large council estates were built at affordable rents all over the country and there is no sign of this policy returning.

According to a family member living in Newquay, the business he works for can not get staff because there is no accommodation available.

Average house prices are now £400,000, owners of B and B's are selling these to affluent Londoners as second homes, so fewer B and B's and hotels are all booked up with staycationers.

Exactly (and the issue was covered in that 2-part BBC documentary I spoke of before). Locals cannot afford to live or work in these areas, which further excerbates the problem by making Cornwall even more dependent on seasonal tourism.

In a similar vein, a relatively modest-priced holiday village I've been going to over the last 15+ years has now demolished all the smaller, cheaper accommodation (which just needed a bit of fixing up [they were 20 years old]) with larger, very upmarket ones, and are now charging 2-3x the price per week. This had already begun before the pandemic started, but they actually have accelerated the programme during 2020.

This sort of thing is happening in many UK popular tourist areas, which means that they are now getting rapidly to be the plaything of the rich, but just between May and September.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Engineer Andy

What is wrecking the housing market is very few affordable houses are being built to allow people renting to move on and mortgage an affordable property.

That's a difficult one. Affordable means below the open market price. How do you keep those homes in a local market and stop the owners selling them on after n years?

It's been tried in the past using Planning Agreements enforceable/amendable as though they were restrictive covenants. I don't think it was successful.

'Affordable' doesn't mean what you and your fellow left-leaning travellers think it does. I don't mean 'right to buy' or using 'shared ownership' schemes, the former just makes a few richer and the latter means it stops social mobility because you can then only move to another property using the exact scheme, because you can't afford a full-rpice home. These sorts of systems distort the market.

I means an end to land banking, significant changes to stop outsiders buying up second (or third) homes for rent as holiday properties at sky-high prices whilst contributing very little (and often taking money out of) to the local economy.

It also means not importing several hundred thousand new people into this country each year, who then have to be housed, thus driving up costs further and meaning more agricultural land and countriside has to be dug up to accomodate them, further increasing our (expensive) dependence on food imports and reducing exports, as well as reducing jobs in local industries, especially farming.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - expat

Rent control came in during WWI because private landlords had jacked up rents and were evicting families who could not pay because the husband was away fighting and earning a private's wages instead of the much better pay he had as a civilian. The result of rent control was the private landlords sold up when ever they could and no one invested in buy to rent. There was a great shortage of private rentals as a result. Getting a mortgage was difficult and banks were reluctant to lend to working class families. This meant a great pressure on councils to provide public housing and long waiting lists. My parents went onto the waiting list when they married in 1945 and got to the top of it in 1990s! By that time they had managed to get a flat through family connections but this was unusual. When I went to Australia in 1970 I couldn't believe how easy it was to get a private rental on a house or flat. Mind you it is no longer like that.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - John F

I may have missed it, but no-one seems to have mentioned hoarding. No-one needs more than two or three houses. If people and property 'companies' were forbidden to own more than five houses and forced to sell/auction their excess by the end of the year, the price of houses would drop like stone back to what I remember them to be fifty years ago when I bought my first house. In those days a fairly decent provincial town/city terraced house cost far fewer years of average income than it does now, and rent controls were in place until the Housing Act of 1980 created a fertile environment for a new generation of Rackmans.

In my town I have known a house sold to such a hoarder without them even bothering to view it. Sadly, there is a widespread view that such landlords provide a valuable service.....but they actually produce nothing and serve no-one but themselves (and I write as a buy-to-let landlord with a tiny portfolio of one small house which over the years has made far more money than it actually cost). Thanks to our laissez faire society, buy-to-let landlordism became probably the easiest and most brainless way in which one could 'make money'. The only training required was a few games of Monopoly and the mathematical competence of a twelve year old.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - misar

I may have missed it, but no-one seems to have mentioned hoarding. No-one needs more than two or three houses. If people and property 'companies' were forbidden to own more than five houses and forced to sell/auction their excess by the end of the year, the price of houses would drop like stone back to what I remember them to be fifty years ago when I bought my first house.

Try telling that one to a bunch of ordinary, somewhat younger folk who own their own houses with large mortgages. I suggest you keep your back to the wall while they tell you about the delights of being trapped in negative equity.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - John F

.... If people and property 'companies' were forbidden to own more than five houses and forced to sell/auction their excess by the end of the year, the price of houses would drop like stone back to what I remember them to be fifty years ago when I bought my first house.

Try telling that one to a bunch of ordinary, somewhat younger folk who own their own houses with large mortgages. I suggest you keep your back to the wall while they tell you about the delights of being trapped in negative equity.

Obv my suggestion is completely unacceptable in the short term, but without rent controls how else can rampant property inflation be halted when it is so simple for horders to cheaply borrow easily available money and roll over profits to both avoid tax and buy more property? Hardly surprising some housebuilder shares are 10x what they were after the crash of 2008.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Brit_in_Germany

If you were to look at the post I was responding to, it had the following sentence. "Over the years since 2008 governments could have borrowed at very low rates, easily covered by rents, and built many thousands of homes."

This is clearly referring to central government and I doubt central government has built a single social housing home in the last 100 years.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Bromptonaut

This is clearly referring to central government and I doubt central government has built a single social housing home in the last 100 years.

Local Government could also borrow or issue bonds. Alternatively Central Government can borrow and fund Social Housing provision by Councils, the Arms Length organisations that now manage Council Housing or via Housing Associations.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Xileno

No debate that the BTL demand has had an effect, to what extent is debatable and will vary between parts of the country. In University towns I imagine it's huge but for how much longer? Maybe remote learning is the future.

I think the Govt. needs to look at how it can better allocate the housing stock available. We need to build more and perhaps put some curbs on BTL but they shouldn't be the only solutions to this problem.

Maybe the tax system could be used to encourage people to downsize to a property that is more closely linked to their needs. This could be particularly useful for older people, once their families have left. Many older pensioners end up being capital rich but income poor. Incentives could be given to encourage them to move to a smaller home. I emphasise encourage, not suggesting any compulsion at all. Some random thoughts that come into my mind, checks would have to be put in place to prevent abuse of the system but some options might be:

  • On downsizing from the family home you've had for more than x years, no stamp duty paid on the next one you buy. Or a lower rate.
  • Same as above but maybe a concession on Council Tax, maybe not paying it for five years or so.
  • A certain percentage of any capital released from the sale could be passed on to children free of IHT and exempt from the seven year allowance, should the older person be unfortunate to die before the seven year point.

Just some ideas, probably lots of problems and potential for abuse but it's food for thought.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Bromptonaut

No debate that the BTL demand has had an effect, to what extent is debatable and will vary between parts of the country. In University towns I imagine it's huge but for how much longer? Maybe remote learning is the future.

It would be interesting to see some analysis of how BTL has played in student lets as they were a 'thing' before the BTL revolution in the nineties. ISTR that before the rental legislation was reformed Student Lets were an exemption form the fair rents/secure tenancy regime. The Assured Shorthold Tenancy, where the landlord could easily get possession merely by giving notice, was a big driver for BTL.

It's addressed the previous position where there it was difficult to find family homes to rent privately. The effect on the FTB market is an unintended consequence. The escalation of rents is another. The interface between real market rents, the Local Housing Allowance limits and the Benefit Cap are a real poverty trap. Not everywhere but very much so in places where commuting to London is viable and/or there is a vigorous local economy.

I'm not sure I understand whether older people need incentives to downsize though your third bullet about allowing sale proceeds some protection from IHT has merit. There are concessions in IHT for the value of occupied residential property; it would make sense to extend those to 'ring fenced' sale proceeds.

There's also a lacuna in the way houses are treated when people go into funded care which incentivises them being left empty.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Engineer Andy

The benefit cap is to stop families claiming several tens of £0000s in benefits because they have large families, often with several fathers of children conceived even when they know they cannot afford to look after them and whoi play no part in their lives, especially financially.

What doesn't help either is the explosion since the mid 90s in students and young people living on their own, which further reduces the housing stock. Similarly with the scrapping of the married couple's allowance and other incetnives for people to form and stay in proper relationships.

As with the e-scooters/cycling thread, there are more than just faults on one side - I know of many circumstances where tenants ruin BTL properties or have used existing laws to stay despite treating the property poorly/being anti-social, or when the owner has a legitimate reason for selling and gives them a decent amount of notice.

The problem is that in politics, all we tend to get is one reactionary policy to the last in a never-ending cycle, because people can't look beyong their own ideology and find out what actually works for the common good (which can sometimes mean one set of people benefits more than others [that's life]) that is a reasonable balance over the longer term.

That does not mean compromises between two extremes are what's needed, as often they are even worse because they don't benefit anyone, but waste time and resources doing so.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Bromptonaut

The benefit cap is to stop families claiming several tens of £0000s in benefits because they have large families, often with several fathers of children conceived even when they know they cannot afford to look after them and whoi play no part in their lives, especially financially.

The feckless father/baby factory schtick was what Osborne was playing to when announcing the cap.

If that was the intention then it was an extraordinary poor piece of design. In large parts of the country it catches families with two children living in private rented property and with rent at or below the ceiling set by Local Housing Allowance.

Universal Credit starts out by calculating what that couple and two kids need to live on plus paying the rent on their home. The Cap then takes £360/month off that subsistence income. The only reason is private rented housing. I do this stuff for a living and used a professional benefit calculator and rent for a 3 bed house in Northampton.

Is that fair?

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Engineer Andy

The benefit cap is to stop families claiming several tens of £0000s in benefits because they have large families, often with several fathers of children conceived even when they know they cannot afford to look after them and whoi play no part in their lives, especially financially.

The feckless father/baby factory schtick was what Osborne was playing to when announcing the cap.

If that was the intention then it was an extraordinary poor piece of design. In large parts of the country it catches families with two children living in private rented property and with rent at or below the ceiling set by Local Housing Allowance.

Universal Credit starts out by calculating what that couple and two kids need to live on plus paying the rent on their home. The Cap then takes £360/month off that subsistence income. The only reason is private rented housing. I do this stuff for a living and used a professional benefit calculator and rent for a 3 bed house in Northampton.

Is that fair?

£26k (in benefits) is a lot more than many HOUSEHOLD incomes. Perhaps re-read what I and others have said above about resolving problems, which don't involving paying more taxpayer money to subsidise people and further enrich landlords, who only charge what they can get away with.

Maybe you need to stop reading all those leftist 'conspiracy' websites and papers and live in the REAL world like the rest of us.

Like 'shooting fish in a barrel', eh Brompt? Or not, in your case, despite claiming so elsewhere.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Bromptonaut

£26k (in benefits) is a lot more than many HOUSEHOLD incomes. Perhaps re-read what I and others have said above about resolving problems, which don't involving paying more taxpayer money to subsidise people and further enrich landlords, who only charge what they can get away with.

£26k, however delivered, may well be more than some household incomes, no dispute there. My point was about a subsistence income reduced solely on account of rent over which the recipient of the income has no control.

Care to guess how much Universal Credit the couple and two kids in a private rental would get every month if they were working for a net, never mind gross, income of £26k pa?

I agree about enriching landlords but I'm sure you assert a belief in the free market. Are you saying maybe the answer is rent controls after all?

There was a case in the Court of Appeal last week over the way the Cap treats people with EXACTLY the same annual income differently depending on whether they're paid monthly or 4-weekly.

Maybe you need to stop reading all those leftist 'conspiracy' websites and papers and live in the REAL world like the rest of us.

In this case I don't need any form of conspiracy, just numbers and benefit rules.

Like 'shooting fish in a barrel', eh Brompt? Or not, in your case, despite claiming so elsewhere.

Bang Bang ;-)

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Engineer Andy

£26k (in benefits) is a lot more than many HOUSEHOLD incomes. Perhaps re-read what I and others have said above about resolving problems, which don't involving paying more taxpayer money to subsidise people and further enrich landlords, who only charge what they can get away with.

£26k, however delivered, may well be more than some household incomes, no dispute there. My point was about a subsistence income reduced solely on account of rent over which the recipient of the income has no control.

Care to guess how much Universal Credit the couple and two kids in a private rental would get every month if they were working for a net, never mind gross, income of £26k pa?

I agree about enriching landlords but I'm sure you assert a belief in the free market. Are you saying maybe the answer is rent controls after all?

No, as I ably described earlier. deleted

There was a case in the Court of Appeal last week over the way the Cap treats people with EXACTLY the same annual income differently depending on whether they're paid monthly or 4-weekly.

Maybe you need to stop reading all those leftist 'conspiracy' websites and papers and live in the REAL world like the rest of us.

In this case I don't need any form of conspiracy, just numbers and benefit rules.

So why read the Grauniad? You falsely accused me of 'frequenting US conspiracy websites' (I wasn't aware that The Daily Wire and Fox News were) and yet you appear to still subscribe to ideology that was debunked 50 years ago.

Like 'shooting fish in a barrel', eh Brompt? Or not, in your case, despite claiming so elsewhere.

Bang Bang ;-)

Missed on both counts, yet again. Maybe your aim is bad because it keeps pulling too far to The Left? That you keeping playing these childish games and try and spread untruths on other websites to avoid direct reply, whilst artificially puffing up you own lack of accomplishments does not do you any credit.

It reminds me of Gordon Brown who has 'that smile' when he's been (often) bested by an opponent, pretending he's won the argument, when it's the opposite.

I invite you to withdraw those comments over on C4P.

Edited by Xileno on 22/06/2021 at 20:58

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Bromptonaut

No, as I ably described earlier. deleted

You described the conventional answer to rent controls which can be summarised as 'they don't work'. On their own and based on the way they were implemented in the 'Fair Rent' era in the UK there's some support for that.

You then spoke disparagingly of enriching landlords who charge what they can get away with. I wondered whether you might actually have seen a place for controls as part of a wider armoury for regulating the private rental sector.

Not for the first time you've ducked a question about how the Welfare System should work. Is there a rationale for a benefit cap that catches people receiving a subsistence income plus their market rent?

I'm not talking about women with multiple babies from multiple fathers. They're a different issue.

So why read the Grauniad? You falsely accused me of 'frequenting US conspiracy websites' (I wasn't aware that The Daily Wire and Fox News were) and yet you appear to still subscribe to ideology that was debunked 50 years ago.

Because I like its coverage as a left leaning liberal (small l) paper. If Democratic Socialism is the ideology you (wrongly) think debunked then the Guardian has never been an unqualified supporter. Neither has it consistently held a Labour position at elections.

I'd certainly assert Fox as supporting conspiracy theories; see the last US election. A website 'Why Europe Loves our Mentally Defective President' isn't supporting conspiracy type untruths? Only if you've swallowed that stuff hook>line>sinker do those two look in any way rational organs.

Missed on both counts, yet again. Maybe your aim is bad because it keeps pulling too far to The Left? That you keeping playing these childish games and try and spread untruths on other websites to avoid direct reply, whilst artificially puffing up you own lack of accomplishments does not do you any credit.

It reminds me of Gordon Brown who has 'that smile' when he's been (often) bested by an opponent, pretending he's won the argument, when it's the opposite.

I invite you to withdraw those comments over on C4P.

If I'd remembered you were stalking me (see the stuff about Political Betting) I might have been more guarded on C4P. However I think the observation, in it's context, stands and, for now, I'll decline the offer to withdraw.

That response may be coloured by your comments above about my capacity for understanding, accusations of childish games etc. You seem determined to personalise these discussions at every opportunity. I've asked you again to deal with the specific issue of welfare. Can you do so in a way which is free of apparent bluster?

If you object to what I posted in C4P then take it up with the Mods there. By raising it here you've increased the audience 100fold.

Edited by Xileno on 22/06/2021 at 20:57

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Engineer Andy

No, as I ably described earlier. deleted

You described the conventional answer to rent controls which can be summarised as 'they don't work'. On their own and based on the way they were implemented in the 'Fair Rent' era in the UK there's some support for that.

You then spoke disparagingly of enriching landlords who charge what they can get away with. I wondered whether you might actually have seen a place for controls as part of a wider armoury for regulating the private rental sector.

Not for the first time you've ducked a question about how the Welfare System should work. Is there a rationale for a benefit cap that catches people receiving a subsistence income plus their market rent?

I'm not talking about women with multiple babies from multiple fathers. They're a different issue.

So why read the Grauniad? You falsely accused me of 'frequenting US conspiracy websites' (I wasn't aware that The Daily Wire and Fox News were) and yet you appear to still subscribe to ideology that was debunked 50 years ago.

Because I like its coverage as a left leaning liberal (small l) paper. If Democratic Socialism is the ideology you (wrongly) think debunked then the Guardian has never been an unqualified supporter. Neither has it consistently held a Labour position at elections.

I'd certainly assert Fox as supporting conspiracy theories; see the last US election. A website 'Why Europe Loves our Mentally Defective President' isn't supporting conspiracy type untruths? Only if you've swallowed that stuff hook>line>sinker do those two look in any way rational organs.

Missed on both counts, yet again. Maybe your aim is bad because it keeps pulling too far to The Left? That you keeping playing these childish games and try and spread untruths on other websites to avoid direct reply, whilst artificially puffing up you own lack of accomplishments does not do you any credit.

It reminds me of Gordon Brown who has 'that smile' when he's been (often) bested by an opponent, pretending he's won the argument, when it's the opposite.

I invite you to withdraw those comments over on C4P.

If I'd remembered you were stalking me (see the stuff about Political Betting) I might have been more guarded on C4P. However I think the observation, in it's context, stands and, for now, I'll decline the offer to withdraw.

That response may be coloured by your comments above about my capacity for understanding, accusations of childish games etc. You seem determined to personalise these discussions at every opportunity. I've asked you again to deal with the specific issue of welfare. Can you do so in a way which is free of apparent bluster?

If you object to what I posted in C4P then take it up with the Mods there. By raising it here you've increased the audience 100fold.

That you like to spread falsehoods elsewhere rather than to have the guts to say it here to me in person shows rather a lot. If you recall, I made that accusation about Political Betting to YOU here, not elsewhere to spread rumours, and I accepted I had made a mistake on that occasion and apologised.

Maybe you could do the honour of giving me the same courtesy, including retracting your comments on C4P, given you have no idea where I browse on the internet, and, as I said, the sites I quote are certainly not 'consipracy theorist'.

Perhaps in the future, you might want to concentrate on discussing issues rather than just pushing your personal ideology and opposing anything people say because of who they support politically - you appear to pick battles with many people here, not just me.

It is getting rather tiresome that you appear, in my view at least, to think of almost every issue through your narrow political lens, and frankly I suspect it puts people off engaging in conversation because they are tired of politics elsewhere.

Edited by Xileno on 22/06/2021 at 21:03

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Bromptonaut

Perhaps in the future, you might want to concentrate on discussing issues rather than just pushing your personal ideology and opposing anything people say because of who they support politically - you appear to pick battles with many people here, not just me.

It is getting rather tiresome that you appear, in my view at least, to think of almost every issue through your narrow political lens, and frankly I suspect it puts people off engaging in conversation because they are tired of politics elsewhere.

To be honest Andy the bit I've bolded could be addressed to yourself.

IIRC you only mentioned Political Betting when I asked for 'Further and Better Particulars' when you repeatedly alluded to me being banned for another site. What I posted on C4P was discussion regarding posts on there from a person with similar views to yourself and a pithy summation of my encounters here. There's nothing there that a reader could not infer from our posts on here.

This part of the Forum is set aside for non-motoring discussions some of which are political - see the Brexit hamster wheels. Occasionally it bleeds over into Motoring over contentious stuff like the ULEZ. If the Mods think it's putting people off then they can shut threads etc.

Back on topic do you have anything more to say about affordable housing?

The Benefit Cap is in the news today as the number affected is rising rapidly. Not surprising as people who lost their jobs in the second wave will be coming to the end of their 9 month 'grace period' where, for those with recent work history, it does not apply.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Xileno

Moderators are happy for these more 'robust' discussions to occur in this non-motoring forum as long as it stays civil. We tend to only close threads as a joint decision if it's heading in an unsalvageable direction, we haven't got there quite yet...

Edited by Xileno on 22/06/2021 at 17:54

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Engineer Andy

Perhaps in the future, you might want to concentrate on discussing issues rather than just pushing your personal ideology and opposing anything people say because of who they support politically - you appear to pick battles with many people here, not just me.

It is getting rather tiresome that you appear, in my view at least, to think of almost every issue through your narrow political lens, and frankly I suspect it puts people off engaging in conversation because they are tired of politics elsewhere.

To be honest Andy the bit I've bolded could be addressed to yourself.

IIRC you only mentioned Political Betting when I asked for 'Further and Better Particulars' when you repeatedly alluded to me being banned for another site. What I posted on C4P was discussion regarding posts on there from a person with similar views to yourself and a pithy summation of my encounters here. There's nothing there that a reader could not infer from our posts on here.

Then why name me in person? I've never done the same for you or anyone else, whether here or on other forums unless it was a positive comment. I am not a public figure so have no right of reply without joining a forum I have no wish to. It was only pure luck that another Backroomer (whom I will not name) came across your post and emailed me privately.

This part of the Forum is set aside for non-motoring discussions some of which are political - see the Brexit hamster wheels. Occasionally it bleeds over into Motoring over contentious stuff like the ULEZ. If the Mods think it's putting people off then they can shut threads etc.

Back on topic do you have anything more to say about affordable housing?

I've said my peace on that already. That you seem to either not understand it or ignore what I and other say is a matter for you.

The Benefit Cap is in the news today as the number affected is rising rapidly. Not surprising as people who lost their jobs in the second wave will be coming to the end of their 9 month 'grace period' where, for those with recent work history, it does not apply.

Sorry, but you can't (again) give your slippery reply and get out of what you've done as if nothing has happened and you didn't make a big mistake.

Maybe if people like you handn't argued so strongly for continued harsh lockdowns when it has now been demonstrated both here, in the EU and in the US that they didn't work that many people and small firms wouldn't find themselves in the pickle they are.

That many people also spend frivolously on consumer items (cars included) and then complain about 'affordable housing' is ironic to say the least. I remember back in the 1980s in Tottenham many neighbours of my gran having satellite dishes and owning BMWs whilst living in council housing.

My family was (and is) middle class but could not afford either and yet they managed to buy and pay for their modest 3 bed semi on a relatively modest income.

I too, even as an engineer, have never earned a fortune, but managed (especially in my early career when not earning that much) to pay (essentially) cash for both my cars (the second when new) and save up enough for a 53% downpayment on my flat, whilst colleagues on the same sallary wondered how I managed that (as they had little to no savings). I got no financial help from my parents.

For the vast, vast majority of people (there will always be those who, by certain specific circumstances will not be able to afford their own home) can save up and make decent, responsible life choices that mean they are more financially secure later on despite not earning a fortune.

My case is not unique or that amazing either - I know plenty of people who have similar scrimped and save as well as worked hard to improve themselves, sometimes under far worse conditions and still been able to afford their own home.

This does mean for some being responsible, including not having 'little accidents' several times in their 20s both their car or their bedroom with their other half when they cannot afford the big (and often life-long) reprocussions.

As I said before, if you subsidise rents, the landlord will keep putting them up or if they are rent-controlled, get out of the business. Why should other taxpayers subsidise people who's lifestyle and personal choices mean they cannot afford to live as they do, despite many starting out the same?

The problems lie with demand. That means dealing with beneifts and people so they behave responsibly, and reducing the demand as well by not having huge number of net legal immigrants (Tesco estimated that via their shopping stats, several years ago [but after the 2011 census] they were feeding 80M people [official population 68M at the time) and likely a lot more illegal ones vying for property and driving prices up, as well as rich people and developers.firms buying up huge tracts of housing for recycling into expensive properties.

The price of land, existing and new home would then adjust/drop accordingly, making it far more affordable for the vast majority to either buy outright or rent - as they require/need to. Subsidisng things on a massive scale always distorts the market (as it does with the minimum wage) and causes further disparities, making the differences between rich/poor or haves/have nots even larger.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Bromptonaut

For the vast, vast majority of people (there will always be those who, by certain specific circumstances will not be able to afford their own home) can save up and make decent, responsible life choices that mean they are more financially secure later on despite not earning a fortune.

I've nothing to add to what I've said already about posting an anecdote on C4P.

As to the rest of your post I'll focus on the above as it's a sort of precis of the other paragraphs.

I'm not denying that there's a cohort who put holidays, new car on PCP etc above saving. Most I suspect are living comfortably and only come down to earth with a bump when the misfortune of sickness, redundancy or whatever hits them.

Even when we were young men in the eighties/nineties and a house cost four times annual income, as this place did in 1998, those who could put a decent amount aside after rent/bills, commuting etc were way, way off being a vast vast majority.

The stats on people who have next to nothing left after current rents and bills and are a few missed shifts from being unable to meet their priority owings are well publicised.

You and I can discuss the effects of 'Landlord Benefit' v rent control until the cows come home. FWIW I think your approach is too binary; rent controls and how welfare covers rents are tools that may need to be augmented.

The fact is that where we are now rent on a 3 bed home in this town is well north of £800 a month. If you want a roof over your head that's what it costs. Subsistence living costs are paid on top.

Is it fair or reasonable when Welfare fails to cover basic costs?

Edited by Bromptonaut on 22/06/2021 at 19:25

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - FP

"... if people like you handn't argued so strongly for continued harsh lockdowns when it has now been demonstrated both here, in the EU and in the US that they didn't work..."

I would love to have chapter and verse on this.

I hope you can provide a reference for the studies that demonstrate that harsh lockdowns don't work.

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - sammy1

"""No, as I ably described earlier. deleted."""

I made a very similar observation to this and it got edited out -- no personal comments!!

""""""" It was only pure luck that another Backroomer (whom I will not name) came across your post and emailed me privately.""""""

As I have mentioned before there is too much going on off this forum by some members and it becomes obvious in some of the posts and answers off parties siding!

Having read the arguments above which have covered a lot of ground who is the wiser the renter or the buyer? Come end of life for many, the person with the assets is often stripped by Gov to pay for their care in a nursing home while the asset poor have all their care paid by the state. Meanwhile Boris continues to sit on the fence having promised to come up with a more fairer system.

Edited by Xileno on 22/06/2021 at 20:58

Has buy to let wrecked the housing market? - Xileno

I've tidied up the thread, I must admit the personal comment made did not attract my attention in the same way but for consistency I've removed it.

I really think this thread has gone as far as it will in answering the original question so I'm locking it.