Gone !

Honest John Back Room » General discussion ( non motoring )
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Thu 7 Jul 2022 09:44
Gone ! - Andrew-T

... and not before time. Can the months/years of political charade finally have ended ?

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Thu 7 Jul 2022 10:18
Gone ! - groaver

... and not before time. Can the months/years of political charade finally have ended ?

Only if the new PM is not one of the ministers who have supported the current one until THEY were lied to.

I guess lying to the public isn't important to them.

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Thu 7 Jul 2022 11:28
Gone ! - Engineer Andy

... and not before time. Can the months/years of political charade finally have ended ?

Unfortunately the likely contenders - including I might add all those on the Opposition benches - are of very low quality and/or backed by the WEF and other Establishment 'elites' who do not have the interests of ordinary people at heart.

If only Boris had actually stuck to the 2019 Election Manifesto...

I suspect his 'wife' had something to do with that not happening, whom I also suspect will be off herself sooner rather than later.

Still, at least we're not living in Biden's not-USA (sans a few states) or totalitarian Continental Europe or Down Under.

If you're under 65/not retired it ain't a good time at the moment, andseemingly won't be unless the current crop of politicians (at all levels), journos and big business execs and their cronies are permanently turfed out.

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Thu 7 Jul 2022 11:33
Gone ! - Xileno

I agree widespread change needs to happen, a fairer electoral system would be a good start. However, that's not going to happen so we're stuck with what we've got. What a dismal choice there is, I think if I had to focus down on one person then Ben Wallace might be a safe pair of hands, if even only because the other likely contenders are worse.

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Thu 7 Jul 2022 12:01
Gone ! - movilogo

Unfortunately the likely contenders - including I might add all those on the Opposition benches - are of very low quality

^ this

UK needs a radical reform of electoral system - starting with proportional representation instead of FPTP. 2-party system is obsolete.

Whoever comes, need to abandon net zero strategy. This should bring down fuel price, which in turn price of all other goods leading to manageable inflation level.

Let us enjoy proper motoring as long as fossil fuel lasts. :o)

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Thu 7 Jul 2022 12:55
Gone ! - Andrew-T

<< UK needs a radical reform of electoral system - starting with proportional representation instead of FPTP. 2-party system is obsolete.>>

It seems the US is stuck with a 2-party system, and look where they are. It's little better than a game of American football, where voters support one team or the other, come what may. When one team loses possession, everyone leaves the field and the 'alternative game' takes over.

The tricky problem is always that it's easier to demolish a fixture, but much harder to replace it with something better. Perhaps most people intrinsically well qualified for public office are intelligent enough to prefer doing something else.

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Thu 7 Jul 2022 13:01
Gone ! - movilogo

Perhaps most people intrinsically well qualified for public office are intelligent enough to prefer doing something else.

I have to agree with that. It is difficult for normal hardworking intelligent people to survive (and rise up) in politics. Successful politicians have lots of good connections which were made via networking for long time. People tend to choose people who are like them. So it is always same old, same old.

Edited by movilogo on 07/07/2022 at 13:01

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Thu 7 Jul 2022 15:12
Gone ! - Engineer Andy

<< UK needs a radical reform of electoral system - starting with proportional representation instead of FPTP. 2-party system is obsolete.>>

It seems the US is stuck with a 2-party system, and look where they are. It's little better than a game of American football, where voters support one team or the other, come what may. When one team loses possession, everyone leaves the field and the 'alternative game' takes over.

The tricky problem is always that it's easier to demolish a fixture, but much harder to replace it with something better. Perhaps most people intrinsically well qualified for public office are intelligent enough to prefer doing something else.

But with PR you just get endless coalitions and either nothing gets done (all arguments and falling out/new elections [Italy, Belgium, Greece]) or bad compromises (everywhere else) where each party blames eachother adn voter apathy is even worse.

The problems are as much societal as they are to do with the voting system.

I tried to think of any Wstern nation that is currently in a good state (taking into account pandemic-borne issues) and frankly I couldn't think of one.

Even the nordic countries, which have generally faired better than most have serious problems, often associated with large scale immigration from Africa and the Middle East, never mind the high cost of living. Most of them still suffer from similar poor leadership (of all kinds), just not as bad as us, the rest of Europe, North America or Australia/NZ.

In my view, the biggest problem for the US political system is how money and influence from certain types of firm and organisations has on the system. That and the media/social media issues I previously raised, which has severely fanned the flames of division.

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Thu 7 Jul 2022 13:32
Gone ! - groaver

UK needs a radical reform of electoral system - starting with proportional representation instead of FPTP. 2-party system is obsolete.

It works well in certain parts of the UK.

If only the press would stop going on about a certain party not having an outright majority.

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Thu 7 Jul 2022 15:02
Gone ! - Engineer Andy

I agree widespread change needs to happen, a fairer electoral system would be a good start. However, that's not going to happen so we're stuck with what we've got. What a dismal choice there is, I think if I had to focus down on one person then Ben Wallace might be a safe pair of hands, if even only because the other likely contenders are worse.

The problem with both of them is that:

a) look how bad PR type systems serve continental Europe - they mostly result in unworkable and/or useless coalitions and where even fewer people turn out to vote than in the UK, and often have to be forced by law to vote!

There's way too much artificial polarisation of politics, fanned by the media (to gain/keep influence and money), social media (and their coprorate/shandowy uber-rich / elitist backers) and extreme activists on such platforms who bully weak-minded politicians, journos, civil servants and business leaders who aren't already on their side in for the wrong reasons.

Too much virtue-sgnalling and nasty agendas that don't serve the best interests of the public at large.

b) we've had the proverbial 'safe pair of hands' before in John Major, Gordon Brown, Teresa May in recent memory. And look how bad things turned out with them 'in charge' (they weren't really).

We've also had (too many to count) too many politicians etc with egos bigger than Q's who pay little/no attention to detail or the day-to-day running of things. Personally too many lawyers (not all are bad obviously), journos, celebs and people who've barely experienced the realities of life most people go through. Even on the Left.

Too many 'career politicians' included.

No, I think we need wholesale changes across the board. That may well include to the voting system (I also think the voting age [and all ages of adult responsibility] should be raised to 21 and being able tp stand as an MP to at least 30).

In my local area, the recent local elections heralded a new 'town party' practically taking over the town council (I decided not to vote as I didn't have any info about what any of them believed in politically other than 'in the town') with the Tories fielding only a couple of candidates (none in my voting ward).

And yet with all the financial, health and social troubles we've been facing recently, what was their first act - to allow the two (seriously ounumbered) Lib Dems to 'declare a climate emergency' (they'd done the same on the first day when voted in at District level 3 years ago).

My fears that this 'town party' wasn't 'apolitical' as they pretended to be was borne out in ONE DAY. And they wonder why so few people turn out to vote...

This is going to be BIG uphill struggle to improve things.

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Thu 7 Jul 2022 15:35
Gone ! - Andrew-T

<< This is going to be BIG uphill struggle to improve things. >>

Before we demolish our FPTP elections we should remember that at least most of us are familiar with that system. Any replacement will need a decent running-in period for us to get used to it.

And then there is the 5-year time limit. After a change of government the first 6 months is spent deciding who will do what (if anything) and much of the remaining 4 years in doing nothing which might reduce the chance of getting back in next time. Result - little worthwhile progress. One day I hope this fear is pushed down the agenda.

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Fri 8 Jul 2022 12:53
Gone ! - Engineer Andy

<< This is going to be BIG uphill struggle to improve things. >>

Before we demolish our FPTP elections we should remember that at least most of us are familiar with that system. Any replacement will need a decent running-in period for us to get used to it.

And then there is the 5-year time limit. After a change of government the first 6 months is spent deciding who will do what (if anything) and much of the remaining 4 years in doing nothing which might reduce the chance of getting back in next time. Result - little worthwhile progress. One day I hope this fear is pushed down the agenda.

Indeed, hence why most if not all of the continental systems aren't better (and most are far worse) than ours.

For all of the genuine complaints from the new, (currently) minor political parties about being squeezed out (often by tactical voting in more recent times), the continental systems often do the opposite - put way too much power into the hands of such parties, some which are on the extreme Right and Left and more generally lead to constant infighting in useless coalitions.

As a result, power often gets pushed into the hands of bureaucrats like the EU Commission or national equivalents & Quangos, which isn't good for democracy /accountability.

Hwoever bad things seem on that score in the UK, they're worse over the Channel. IMHO.

At least our MPs finally dropped the daft Fixed Term Parliaments Act, which was shown in 2018-19 to be a terrible idea and was only instituted to playcate the Lib Dems back in 2010 when in the coalition government.

As you say, what REALLY needs to happen is for better policy discussions to happen prior to General Elections, which would necessitate more ordinary people working in a wider variety real world jobs being involved, so that well-thought out (as oppsed to either back of a fag packet or not-though-out ideas) and rigously scrutinised policies can be showcased at the elctions and them almost immediately implementd because they HAVE a plan of action.

As yet, I don't see anyone, including much of the minor (new) parties, having anything bar slogans and not fleshed-out soundbites.

Some individuals seem to have more, but I think many are still holding back out of fear of 'being cancelled' (because alternative ideas and opinions are nowadays considered heresy which must be silenced at all costs rather than properly discussed) through being labelled (wrongly) as 'extreme' or of being some 'ist' or 'phobe'.

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Sun 17 Jul 2022 21:48
Gone ! - Ethan Edwards

I've seen PMs and Governments come and go since Harold Wilson. I can say there's only one constant. Invariably after a few months they manage to make the previous lot look fantastic. So yeah celebrate Boris' demise now but will you be thinking the same in twelve months? Thirty six months? I highly doubt it. In all that time only one PM has broken this cast iron rule. So yes I'll reserve my celebration until its clearly an improvement but I won't be holding my breath.

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