Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? | Legal matters | Back Room Forum

Sat 17 Jun 2023 00:13

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - crxg

So a very unusual situation I encountered today. On my route to work, a set of tempoary traffic lights. Not particuarly unusual in itself, they seem to be everywhere in my area. What was unusual in the length of time that they apepared to be on red. I was in my car for at least six minutes. Nothing. I got out to see ahead of the truck in front of me. With the roadworks, there was some dump truck in the middle of the road which apepared to be dumping gravel or something near the roadworks. I got back in the car, and waited.

Then I began to see cars who hadn't been coming in the other direction to start mounting the pavement to avoid the truck which was in the middle of the road. Meanwhile the truck in front of me and the car in front of that began to move. I assumed the lights had changed. However, I could see they were still on red by the time I passed them, and the truck and car mounted the pavement. I decided i would not do that and would stay where I am.

I asked the roadworker what was going on. He said their truck doing whatever work it was doing meant they had to keep the lights frozen on red for ten minutes. I told him so what you actually mean the road is closed, why have you let people down it. He didn't answer.

In the end they reactivated the lights and I passed. What i want to know is how do i stand, i obviously went through a red light but it seems unlikely anything will happen. But hypothetically do i have a defence in that any reasonable person would assume after five+ minutes of no light change that there would be some kind of defect with the lights, meaning to edge forward slowly and treat it as an unmarked crossroads. Furthermore the fact that the road was in effect closed, surely that would mean the roadworkers were at fault for not putting diversion and closed signs and thus the traffic lights were not actually functioning as traffic lights. I think it would be an interesting test case. I read somewhere that some utility company (ringways) videos red light jumpers and peoiple have been isseud warning letters by the police, this was virgin media of all companies.

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Sat 17 Jun 2023 09:10

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - Palcouk

You have no defence if prosicuted

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Sat 17 Jun 2023 10:08

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - Andrew-T

You have no defence if prosecuted

... except that you would be in the company of many others in the same position ....

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Sat 17 Jun 2023 12:43

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - Adampr

You have no defence if prosecuted

... except that you would be in the company of many others in the same position ....

AFAIk, temporary traffic lights are 'advisory' and you can't get prosecuted for driving through them in red. However, you can still get prosecuted for careless/dangerous driving. Had they been stuck on red with no cars coming the other way and nobody in the road works, that would have been fine. Given that traffic was coming the other way and there was clearly work going on, I'd say that's not fine.

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Sat 17 Jun 2023 15:06

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - civicpride2056

The traffic was only coming the other way because they were jumping the lights too.

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Sat 17 Jun 2023 23:43

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - Adampr

The traffic was only coming the other way because they were jumping the lights too.

And the dumper that was obviously in the middle of the road working? It's not like some abandoned road works in the dead of night with no-one around. Everybody could see exactly why the lights were on red and they chose to ignore it.

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Sat 17 Jun 2023 16:21

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - silverback

You have no defence if prosecuted

... except that you would be in the company of many others in the same position ....

AFAIk, temporary traffic lights are 'advisory' and you can't get prosecuted for driving through them in red. However, you can still get prosecuted for careless/dangerous driving. Had they been stuck on red with no cars coming the other way and nobody in the road works, that would have been fine. Given that traffic was coming the other way and there was clearly work going on, I'd say that's not fine.

Highway Code Rule 109 says MUST so definitely not 'advisory'. If advisory the word should is used in the rules. Not the rule includes temporary signs and signals.

109
Traffic light signals and traffic signs. You MUST obey all traffic light signals (download ‘Light signals controlling traffic’) and traffic signs giving orders, including temporary signals & signs (download ‘Traffic signs’). Make sure you know, understand and act on all other traffic and information signs and road markings (download ‘Road markings’ and Vehicle markings’) .
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10, 15, 16, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 36, 38 & 40

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Sat 17 Jun 2023 23:37

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - Adampr

You have no defence if prosecuted

... except that you would be in the company of many others in the same position ....

AFAIk, temporary traffic lights are 'advisory' and you can't get prosecuted for driving through them in red. However, you can still get prosecuted for careless/dangerous driving. Had they been stuck on red with no cars coming the other way and nobody in the road works, that would have been fine. Given that traffic was coming the other way and there was clearly work going on, I'd say that's not fine.

Highway Code Rule 109 says MUST so definitely not 'advisory'. If advisory the word should is used in the rules. Not the rule includes temporary signs and signals.

109
Traffic light signals and traffic signs. You MUST obey all traffic light signals (download ‘Light signals controlling traffic’) and traffic signs giving orders, including temporary signals & signs (download ‘Traffic signs’). Make sure you know, understand and act on all other traffic and information signs and road markings (download ‘Road markings’ and Vehicle markings’) .
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10, 15, 16, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 36, 38 & 40

Right you are. The law changed in 1994.

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Sun 18 Jun 2023 19:00

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - daveyjp

Few months ago it took me 2 hours to do a 15 minute journey as a temporary set of lights with three way operation was stuck on red on my route.

I had no problem driving through red. Had I not we would have been there until next morning.

I managed to find out who was responsible for them and called their out of hours emergency line to get them fixed.

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Sun 18 Jun 2023 19:27

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - Bromptonaut

a temporary set of lights with three way operation was stuck on red on my route. I had no problem driving through red.

There are a set near us controlling alternate one way working over a narrow bridge where the road's width is reduced because of subsidence in the approach to it. When I say temporary they've been there for about four years.

When they're working properly they're quite well set up. Default bith ways is red but there are sensors and when a vehicle is sensed approaching 'their light'. goes green. If there are folks waiting at both sides it sequences them.

Every now and then the lights fail and default to red both ways. If that's happened the wait time and presence/size of queue make it clear there's something wrong. Wind you window down, sound your horn and creep over. Cars have (just) enough width to pass in the middle - as they did before the road crumbled.

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Sun 18 Jun 2023 20:12

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - crxg

Do any of these lights have any kind of cameras to record red light jumpers? I was speaking to someone who works for a utility company and he says in London the tempoary lights have cameras. (not sure how this would work ).

Obviously it is illegal to go through a red but IMO I and the other drivers just used common sense, it was obvious to me after seeing no cars passing on the other side and being there for around 7 minutes something was wrong. When the cars in front started moving I assumed the lights had changed and followed.

Edited by crxg on 18/06/2023 at 20:13

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Sun 18 Jun 2023 21:52

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - crxg

tinyurl.com/mrxcankx

This document seems to suggest the maximum time a light can remain on all red is 5 minutes. See page 139.

" If a queue in excess of 20 vehicles ateither end is likely or an all-red period in excess of 10 minutes is required, permission for an extended all-redperiod should be sought from the Highway Authority"

How would I go about establishing whether permission for this was sought?

D5.13.6 If portable traffic signals are used, an operative should be present at each signal head. They should have received specific training on communication and dispute resolution so that they are competent

to communicate effectively with members of the public who may seek an explanation as to why they may not

proceed. Alternatively, additional authorised signing can be used to advise waiting motorists that the signals

are functioning correctly.

This seems a more important point potentially. There was no worker present at either signal end certainly not at my end. And there were no signs to inform motorists that the signals were functioning correctly.

Shortened link as it was messing up the screen width. Mod

Edited by Xileno on 20/06/2023 at 12:46

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Sun 18 Jun 2023 22:07

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - Bromptonaut

This document seems to suggest the maximum time a light can remain on all red is 5 minutes. See page 139.

I'd wait until there was a NIP on my doormat before getting this far into the subject.

Not seen this in the UK but seem to recall being held up in France for 15+ mins while a hot tar + chips surface re-texturing thing was applied over a few hundred metres.

Just part of life's tapestry; chill and live with it.

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Sun 18 Jun 2023 22:42

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - galileo

A weak bridge over the M62 has been narrowed to one lane with barriers and had temporary lights for at least 2 or 3 years, pending strengthening work.

Until the repairs start (don't hold your breath waiting) there will never be any workers at this location.

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Mon 19 Jun 2023 09:38

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - daveyjp

No red light cameras as standard, but they can be fitted if there is evidence of a high number of drivers ignoring res lights and endangering operatives.

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Mon 19 Jun 2023 11:33

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - crxg

What do they look like? Surely they can't flash and they are only video cameras as to my knowledge red light cameras look like speed cameras and often function as both

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Mon 19 Jun 2023 13:18

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - KJP 123

In France there is often a visible timer to show how long until the lights will turn green.

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Tue 20 Jun 2023 11:01

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - Gerry Sanderson

Temporary traffic lights at road works have the same authority as normal junction lights and are held to be lawfully placed unless the contrary is proved.

They have to conform to the size, colour and type, sequence of illumination as prescribed in Traffic Signs General Directions 2002

Where light stuck at red a District Judge held a driver who waited a reasonable time (not defined)to change to his favour may then proceed with caution - but this was from an Irish Dublin District Court report (1959 Jo.CR im.L,222) reported in Wilkinson's Traffic Offences, the Justices holding that a reasonable belief the lights had failed would be a defence. An argument put forward being that if a light failed then they no longer comply and therefore unlawful,the onus being on the defendant to show the lights out of phase.

dvd

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Tue 20 Jun 2023 12:38

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - Greendean

I think traffic lights it is unusual for them to wait that long, so if you could prove they are malfunctioning at the time, that would be your defence, I'm not sure if they have the same technology to capture you for prohibiting a traffic light offence that permanent ones would anyway.

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Thu 22 Jun 2023 21:35

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - crxg

They were not malfunctioning, I found out later when speaking to a road worker they had put them on a so called all red phase so their lorry could do something. However the length of time and the fact there was no road worker present at each end to inform drivers of what was occuring suggests the lights may have actually not been legal.

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Thu 29 Jun 2023 09:54

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - Greendean

They were not malfunctioning, I found out later when speaking to a road worker they had put them on a so called all red phase so their lorry could do something. However the length of time and the fact there was no road worker present at each end to inform drivers of what was occuring suggests the lights may have actually not been legal.

Sounds like a complete mess, if they are not informing drivers would do they expect you to do at the end of the day.

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Thu 29 Jun 2023 10:05

Tempoary Traffic Lights - to wait or not to wait? - daveyjp

Had a stuck on red situation yesterday with a temporary pelican crossing,

Despite people on the pavement letting people know one driver in the opposite lane stopped and used it as an opportunity to use her mobile. I stopped and it took a few horn blasts before she wound down the window and I told her if she wasn't on the phone she may hear and see people telling her the lights were stuck on red.

The queue from those lights was over a mile long.

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