The 45 p/mile HMRC rate includes the cost of fuel - unless the dealer paid for the fuel the rate charged should be lower than HMRC rate.

I thought the act states that I am able to charge back reasonable costs associated. For example I took out insurance, breakdown cover, etc. All of which I will only get a partial refund on. As it is their fault that the car is being returned, because they refuse to fix the Air Con which was a advertised feature, surely I can claim that back?

The cost to fix the problem is about £500. Of course for them it would be cheaper as the'd get trade price and claim back VAT.

I was planning to pursue this under the not of satisfactory quality angle, especially as they advertised the car as having Air Conditioning.

I get the feeling they do this to a lot of people and hope that most will not go through the hassle or expense of taking them to court for £500, but it's not right that they can just get away with it.

There is no reason why an 8 yearold car should not have a working a/c system. Our 11 year old S Max still gave out cold air when we got rid of it, with no refills or repairs during that time.

I take some small comfort in knowing that the dealer will lose a lot more than me for their foolishness. They will now have to clean it, re-list it and sell it. Considering there has now been another owner and they really should either fix or declare the Air Conditioning as broken I cannot see how they will not lose money on this. Absolute madness.

If prices are still rising (as is often reported here) it may even be worth that dealer's while for you to do as planned. They may even feel that you got a bargain :-) Meanwhile you are back at square one.

But £350 is still less than £500 and at the end of the day it's the right thing to do too. Who knows how many people this guy pushes around expecting them to just fold.

Since you are only talking about a couple of tanksful of fuel, it's your choice, and it will mainly be a matter of principle. I wonder what might be non-op in this second vehicle ? :-)

Always a chance I could get burned twice. At the end of the day I accept that items on a used car are going to wear out and fail. Obviously I am going to have to replace parts as time goes on, what I do not accept is the car being sold without a key component working without forewarning and discussion, and to me the Air Con is an expensive and key component.

It seems that when you drove the car from the dealership you didn't realise the aircon was faulty ? I think it is equally likely the seller didn't either, as I would be surprised to find one who would test everything before sale. That's why buyers take cars back, complain and ask for rectification. Probably only the previous owner knew, and he/she is unlikely to have let on.

But this car is about 8 years old, and if you decided that it was an acceptable buy after knocking £300 off the price, I would (in your position) have tried to get the dealer to play ball, and probably grumble when he didn't. The car is otherwise roadworthy and the ££ involved is not exorbitant. Cars well into middle age may need some outlay if you want to restore them to 100% working order.

Principles can cost ! :-)

I could be wrong, but I suspect that they do this type of thing to a lot of people and assume that most people will not go through the hassle or expensive to challenge them. I suppose that when it comes down to it, if they assume I am one of those people, they are greatly mistaken.

You could well be right, as plenty of people on here have few good words in favour of car traders. Sadly that's all part of the Real World, so disgruntled buyers have to either live with that and pay to have problems fixed, or suffer weeks or months of aggro getting nowhere, possibly even spending money on lawyers.

Just be thankful you aren't living in Ukraine ... :-)

You don't mention whether you bought the car on finance. If you used HP/PCP bear in mind that your contract is with the finance company, not the dealer, and your consumer rights are enforceable against them. You need to give your 30 day rejection notice to them.

If a credit card was involved, s.75 may also apply.

That's an interesting document, and also a tad worrying.

"Where a customer is offered a refund after one or more failed repairs (or replacements) you may be able to make a ‘deduction for use’ from the refund."

As it happens they have not once made any offer to correct the fault, so I believe they cannot charge me this. But does make things less cut and dry when I go to the courts.

If I'm lucky they will receive the court summons letter and then decide to settle, shall have to see.

I've asked for either a full refund (subject to the deducting the cost for miles used) or that they pay to repair the Air Con. So far they have ignored the final letter before court proceedings, so I assume it will have to go to court.

I paid cash, the dealer wouldn't take credit card due to the fees.

Even more worrying. What kind of trader was it ?

I paid cash, the dealer wouldn't take credit card due to the fees.

I've had a dealer refuse cash and only accept credit card or bank draft due to money laundering rules.

Update -

Total repairs came to £921, so certainly not insignificant.

I have now begun the small claims court process, the dealer has completely refused up until this point to make any contribution whatsoever to the costs and maintained their right to charge me a weekly rental figure, an amount of which they have never specified.

Ultimately they left me with no choice but to either suck up the cost or take them to court. Shall see what happens now, hopefully I get a sympathetic judge whenever the court date actually happens.

Had my day in court at long last. Judge ripped the dealer apart, all money and court fees owed to me by the dealer within the next 14 days.

Let us know when/if the cash rolls in .... :-(

If it doesn't turn up within the 14 day period consider taking out a third party debt order which freezes the debtor's bank account.

EX325 - Third party debt orders and charging orders - GOV.UK

That would be my suggestion too. He may have stock or equipment a bailiff could seize but high probability it's on finance or similar.

So I've just taken out a EX322 order. They currently have 22 cars on their lot (according to auto trader), a few laptops, etc, so it seemed the logical choice.

If the trader is a company and the property, car on the lot and the laptops are not owned by the company you will still get nothing.

The trader will be well aware what to do to avoid paying up, if necessary they will wind up the company and reappear a few days later on another lot with the same cars under a different name.

Unfortunately you were correct, they are claiming that another T/AS Company owns the cars on the lot.

I'm hitting a brick wall here, the company that I bought from, also a T/AS, does not appear to be listed on Companies House (well, at least not at that address or anywhere else with that name) and I cannot find a company listed for the address that they are in. I've just learned that sole traders do not need to register with companies house, so I'm guessing this is the route they have gone.

The Bailiffs have been useless in so far as they will not communicate with me at all despite 11 phone calls to their provided mobile number and numerous messages. All I have to go on is that they turned up to the company, they note all the banners and signs confirming it is the right place and that said company claimed the warrant was not valid because another company owns the stock.

At this point I'm guessing I have lost the money. I can't locate the company on companies house, so have no chance of getting the director details to try and go for them personally or for finding the details of the company they claim owns the car to change the warrant for that.

Edited by David Robinsdon on 18/11/2022 at 08:06

Hi All,

Thanks for the interest. I do have the original receipt, all nice and professional. However they did not charge VAT and there are no VAT Details on said receipt.

They are on Auto-Trader and, according to their site, an AA Trusted Dealer. But so far neither the AA or Auto-Trader have been willing to engage with me and supply any details either.

I'm not sure I am allowed to post the name of the organisation here, otherwise I would.

Edited by David Robinsdon on 20/11/2022 at 09:53

Don't give up yet -

Presumably you got an invoice for the car from this bunch of shytes, which should show the vat you paid when you bought the car.

The invoice must show the VAT number of the trader, whether a ltd company, a sole trader or sole traders in partnership - it's not optional they have to show it by law. and they must also have displayed in a prominent position the details of the business ie the trader or partner's names and the details of their employers liability insurance.

If the business is owned by sole traders(s) they are personally liable for any and all business debts.

If there is no vat number on the invoice, and you have been charged VAT that is against the law. Go to HMRC and report them.

If there is a vat number use it to check who or what company registered the business for VAT, they shouldn't be able to wriggle out of that one, somebody should have registered it.

www.gov.uk/check-uk-vat-number

If the vat number on their paperwork isn't registered.

graydon.co.uk/resources/blog/risk-management/fraud...t

Again report them to HMRC's hotline.

It might be a good idea to phone or email them first giving them the choice of paying your bill or having an HMRC VAT investigation.

Edited by focussed on 19/11/2022 at 01:37

Yes, the judge did mention to me in court that I might need to get the order changed to go after an individual.

But there seems no way of tracking them down. They are not on companies house, the bailiff won't answer my calls and the other avenues I've tried such as the AA and Autotrader refuse point blank to give me any info.

Most frustrating to be in the right, have a judge agree and yet still not be able to do anything.

Edited by David Robinsdon on 20/11/2022 at 09:53

Yes, but there is no VAT number, or alternate address, etc, on it.

Do you know the proprietor's name?

That was my next question, Adampr!

OP says he has a receipt, that is not the same as an invoice, and a sole trader invoice should show the trader's name, as in this extract from the .gov.uk website:

If you’re a sole trader, the invoice must also include:

• your name and any business name being used
• an address where any legal documents can be delivered to you if you are using a business name

The document they gave me is marked as a Car Sales Invoice, but none of those details are present

OK, so the business name on the invoice is a T/AS name? And the address on it is where the court order was served? And they say they never received the court order at that address, is that right?

Potentially, yes. In the court listing they logged an email address that started "robrichards" Although one person identified themselves as Mitchell and another as Taylor.

The robrichards email address is the only name that has a surname.

Unfortunately not. The Court judgement is against the company (deleted).

When I filled out the request for a court hearing I supplied the details as part of my forms, no alternate address or information was supplied apart from an email address.

On no documentation from them, via the court or their original invoice/documentation with me, are any details whatsoever that will allow me to track them.

There are no details on their site, they are not on Companies House and I cannot find any details such as the VAT number via a google search.

Edited by Xileno on 21/11/2022 at 21:09

"however HMRC will probably not be interested as there's no VAT involved"

If you are buying a used car from a dealer, then he or she will need to pay VAT on any profit made. This is known as the second-hand VAT margin scheme. However, the amount of VAT will not be itemised on the invoice and is of no concern to the buyer unless the buyer is a business.

Although the court case has gone against the dealer, I've removed the garage name to prevent HJ getting caught up in the middle any potential dispute. Even when in the right this could take time to deflect and it's a risk not worth taking.

If anyone should want to know the name of the garage based in the South then I am prepared to forward emails on to the OP who may then agree to let them know the name in private email.

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