That’s two of the three electric buses my firm has off the road. The Sigma’s are eating rear axles and the Merc minibus’s battery pack is suffering serious degradation after less than two years. It’s unable to complete any service route we have now.
Offhand eating rear axles doesn't sound like a specifically EV issue. Just sounds like bad mechanical design or execution, or am I missing something?
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That’s two of the three electric buses my firm has off the road. The Sigma’s are eating rear axles and the Merc minibus’s battery pack is suffering serious degradation after less than two years. It’s unable to complete any service route we have now.
Offhand eating rear axles doesn't sound like a specifically EV issue. Just sounds like bad mechanical design or execution, or am I missing something?
Bit of both maybe?.
EV produces maximum torque at 0 revs and a bus does lots of stopping and starting. so perhaps too much torque for the axle to deal with?
However the bus (obviously) should be fitted with a rear axle able to deal with the torque produced by the electric motor.
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News from Toyota that they have revised their EV sales forecast down wards as their hybrid sales have surged , and even in China, the home of many of the EV producers .
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News from Toyota that they have revised their EV sales forecast down wards as their hybrid sales have surged , and even in China, the home of many of the EV producers .
I recall a recent DT report of fields and fields of unwanted new EVs from their (Chinese) home manufacturers. It was like all those US old fighter jets kept in the desert 'just in case' but on a far larger scale.
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There's well over one million EVs on UK roads right now. That's even with a steep purchase price and 20% VAT on public chargers.
Things change.
If our leaders want more EV take up then they'll need to create the right climate. Otherwise the second million might take a couple of years.
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‘If our leaders want more EV take up then they'll need to create the right climate. Otherwise the second million might take a couple of years.’
It’s taken over twenty years to hit one million registrations, so a couple of years to double that would be extraordinary. But that’s the aim.
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This explains it better, this being the very axle and motor design they use. Think we’ve went through 5 of them so far on 2 buses. Obviously a deeply flawed design.
I did mention to our engineers recently that the vehicles don’t seem to have traction control - unlike most modern buses and all electric versions I’ve previously driven. The Sigma’s will spin their rear wheels on damp roads without much effort. I don’t think this will be doing said axle much good. But so far that’s one out of three still on the road and the firm has now gone bust and taken the warranty with them. They’re largely very expensive depot ornaments these days. Which is a shame as they’ve quite pleasant to drive, very relaxing.
www.wardsauto.com/engines/dana-s-e-axle-enters-pro...a
Edited by SLO76 on 06/02/2024 at 23:27
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The government strategy to increase take up of EVs seems to have changed from:
- "subsidise electric" (company cars, no duty on electricity, zero VED etc) to
- "penalise ICE" with potential £15k penalty per vehicle which does not meet the target of 22% EV sales in 2024
This has the potential to totally disrupt the market:
- those who prefer ICE will hold on to existing vehicles as new will carry a premium, possibly increasing s/h values
- it will make new EV seem relatively cheaper than the ICE alternative
- it will massively favour companies which can meet the 22% quota. Others may go out of business.
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So effectively carrot changed to stick.
The penalty will also make motoring unaffordable to many since it is effectively pushing up prices of new ICE by £15k and thus used car prices will also go up.
Others may go out of business
Or pull out of UK market as all car makers are global and most of them have good market in other parts of the world where it is not yet so hostile against ICEs.
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So effectively carrot changed to stick.
The penalty will also make motoring unaffordable to many since it is effectively pushing up prices of new ICE by £15k and thus used car prices will also go up.
Others may go out of business
Or pull out of UK market as all car makers are global and most of them have good market in other parts of the world where it is not yet so hostile against ICEs.
I have never read such nonsense. Suppose it must be on some obscure website or a daily tabloid.
You would be better off by far considering the real effects of climate change which is happening instead of worrying about some nonsense that will never happen.
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The House of Lords Committee are blaming Rowan Atkinson’s article in the Guardian some time ago for the poor uptake of EVs .
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I can see a fairly strong movement arising in the future as current green initiatives add on costs significantly and in some cases for far inferior results.
As it stands, the UK is at risk - if all green measures succeed 100% , the National Grid /Electricity generating capacity will be stretched by 2027. Hinckley Point has been delayed to start by then but as it is only 10 years late - much due to planning - another couple of years delay could be on the cards,
But then I don't expect Green Initiatives will be a success as they are largely unaffordable by the potential users and the rollouts are bedevilled by Government incompetence. Labour will face some hard choices.in power.
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I hope that labour get it but have no faith in the public to vote the right way, but let us not get into that.
I do not see labour changing anything about the green ideology in cars any time soon, they say they will but history tells us otherwise.
This is not a political platform, but to name only 2 ..
1 . They came into power promising to ret rid of the poll tax and go back to getting this money off income tax, so those on benefits would pay nothing until they got back in work. ALL they did was rename it the "community charge" but same bill, from the same council to pay for the same thing, and same consequences/penalties if you do not pay. A rose by any other name is still a rose,
2 . Bates and the post office scandal, it happened on labour watch as well but they only continued the cover up, and did nothing to stop there own gov ministers or bring justice to the postmasters,
As I said this is not a political platform but the gov labour or cons, will not improve the infrastructure, will not stop spending twice as much money on electric vehicles ( some electric buses cost twice as much as there counterpart ), will never admit they real cost of going green, a cost we are all paying as councils claim bankruptcy, I cant help thinking that had they not spent so much on being green they might have done a better job of fulfilling their other obligations.
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I do not see labour changing anything about the green ideology in cars any time soon, they say they will but history tells us otherwise.
This is not a political platform, but to name only 2 ..
1 . They came into power promising to ret rid of the poll tax and go back to getting this money off income tax, so those on benefits would pay nothing until they got back in work. ALL they did was rename it the "community charge" but same bill, from the same council to pay for the same thing, and same consequences/penalties if you do not pay. A rose by any other name is still a rose,
2 . Bates and the post office scandal, it happened on labour watch as well but they only continued the cover up, and did nothing to stop there own gov ministers or bring justice to the postmasters,
The Tories brought in Poll Tax and got rid of it...and replaced it with the Community Charge...then a bit later it became Council Tax as it is now - nothing whatsoever to do with Labour.
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Not true .. as I said they did not change it, the poll tax came in 1990, since then
Labour have been in power at no.10 1997-2009, and changed nothing about the poll tax. But as I said poll tax and community charge are one and the same. You can call it the nhs benevolent fund or whatever, but if it looks like a rose, it smells like a rose and behaves like a rose then it is a rose.
Anyway this is not a political platform.
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The House of Lords Committee are blaming Rowan Atkinson’s article in the Guardian some time ago for the poor uptake of EVs .
That's a very polite way of blaming people for being stupid. If your entire view of something is formed by the opinion of an actor you're in trouble.
Isn't the main reason for the slowing of EVs that everyone is currently skint and electricity has multiplied in price over the last couple of years?
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The House of Lords Committee are blaming Rowan Atkinson’s article in the Guardian some time ago for the poor uptake of EVs .
That's a very polite way of blaming people for being stupid. If your entire view of something is formed by the opinion of an actor you're in trouble.
Isn't the main reason for the slowing of EVs that everyone is currently skint and electricity has multiplied in price over the last couple of years?
To be fair to Rowan Atkinson, he does hold a degree in Electrical Engineering, so he's no dunce in such matters.
Those behind these 'complaints' are just trying to excuse their own failings and of those others pushing EVs way too early and with little consideration for many issues we've highlighted.
In other words, typical Establishment uselessness and corruption.
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So effectively carrot changed to stick.
The penalty will also make motoring unaffordable to many since it is effectively pushing up prices of new ICE by £15k and thus used car prices will also go up.
Others may go out of business
Or pull out of UK market as all car makers are global and most of them have good market in other parts of the world where it is not yet so hostile against ICEs.
It will make new ICE more expensive but I doubt by £15k - small ICE would then cost much more than their EV equivalents. It will reduce sales - that's the intention!
You are right some manufacturers will go out of business, but those with substantially or all EV fleets (eg: Tesla. BYD. MG etc) will prosper. That's how competitive markets work!
These changes may make motoring unaffordable for some - it will be gradual over the next decade, not an immediate consequence. The alternative - continued use of fossil fuels - limited in supply, creates pollution and (IMHO) climate change - is untenable.
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Those who are virtue signaling on EVs on environmental aspect, should recall that once diesel cars were promoted by government for being better for environment due to lower CO2 emission.
While climate change is real, whether it is a problem or EVs will solve it is open to debate.
One issue with EV is that technology is not matured yet. Newer EVs will have better batteries so better to wait for few years and then buy EVs when improvements will be marginal.
There was a time when every new mobile was substantially better than previous models but now it is no longer the case. A new mobile today is only having an extra camera or little bit more bling compared to a model 2-3 years back. EVs are still in early adopters phase and mainstream public is not ready for it.
If something is good enough, people will buy of their own, without carrot or stick.
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‘Those who are virtue signaling on EVs on environmental aspect, should recall that once diesel cars were promoted by government for being better for environment due to lower CO2 emission.’
At the time, they were. Like for like, a diesel produced a lower level of co2 than an equivalent petrol.
The downside being that they’re worse for local, particulate, emissions.
Is ‘virtue signaling’ intended as an insult, or a slight?
Edited by mcb100 on 07/02/2024 at 12:58
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‘Those who are virtue signaling on EVs on environmental aspect, should recall that once diesel cars were promoted by government for being better for environment due to lower CO2 emission.’ At the time, they were. Like for like, a diesel produced a lower level of co2 than an equivalent petrol. The downside being that they’re worse for local, particulate, emissions. Is ‘virtue signaling’ intended as an insult, or a slight?
The problem was that those same diesels were often far, far worse on particulate emissions - which itself and the severe effects on lung health were known by the EU and governments because their own experts told them as much, and yet they still went ahead and later denied being told.
And, of course, it gave rise to Dieselgate.
The politicians are mainly to blame, but where were the experts when they should've been resigning in protest and/or in front of TV cameras telling everyone about this charade?
More concerned about £££ and their career prospects than principles if you ask me. Now where have I recently heard that about 'experts' who are supposed to be 100% trustworthy? Politicians are 95% born liars, so we know they'll do it, but scientists and engineers?
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Thanks. I suppose I hadn't fully considered the effect of the electric motors greater initial torque, though I would have thought an axle designer like Dana, who I believe do a lot of specialist offroad stuff, ought to have done.
Re being more pleasant to drive, apart from the slim possibility of incineration, the local electric buses here are more pleasant to be a passenger in than the (admittedly often knackered seeming) diesels they replaced. Braking is a lot smoother, perhaps because regeneration smooths out driver input.
The lower pollution is obviously a good thing, though it'll be a bit of a drop removed from the appalling local air quality ocean. About 30% of the muck blows in from China, which probably inhibits local action.
Gogoro electric scooters with battery swap infrastructure are probably a bigger actual and potential improver, since there are more motorcycles per head than anywhere else in the world, and they are mostly small (150cc) engines without cats/
Edited by edlithgow on 08/02/2024 at 01:59
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Depending on the size of the bus electric buses cost twice as much as the diesel counterpart, Also,
1 . with ad blue they ( newer diesel ) put out a lot less then most petrol cars.
2 . If councils have to spend twice there budget on public transport then fares will go up, as well as the council tax, especially with the budget cuts. The recycle bin wagons cost an extra 30k each over traditional diesel ones. Multiply the cost of 1 by the 100's councils across the country have and I would suggest that might be 1 large reason why councils are declaring bankruptcy.
3 . As already stated you should ask yourself how eco friendly it really is when the factories that produce the parts push out more damage then any diesel engine, and they still cannot reuse the batteries once they are gone.
4 . Cars damage the atmosphere much less then say trains, Aircraft etc
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